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Wibble's CCR odyssey

Discussion in 'General Scuba Diving' started by Wibble, Jul 5, 2020.

  1. Dave Whitlow

    Dave Whitlow Super Moderator
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    If only I'd listened to your words of 'wisdom' when I chose to install a BOV! I'd have done exactly the same!

    It seems to me you are a person with more opinion than experience or wisdom and I advise people to ignore the shit you post.

    I've learnt a lot in over 10 years of CCR diving and little matches the shit posted on the subject by @Wibble
     
  2. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Is there anything specifically incorrect in what I posted?
     
  3. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Effect of shutting the O2 valve...

    Was doing more drills over the weekend targetting the response to the "3 H's" (hypoxia, hyperoxia, hypercapnia) -- thanks @Vanny

    The diluent flush on a Revo is through the mouthpiece as there's no dump in the lungs (excepting an over pressure valve). Inject diluent and use "leaky lips" to let the gas pass out of the mouthpiece. Injected gas (dil & O2) enters the exhale lung, crosses the scrubbers over the 5 cells into the inhale lung then exits through the mouthpiece. The O2 levels rapidly show a decline using this technique. Need to dump some gas from the wing to counteract the increase in lung volume.

    (A dil flush was run through on MOD1, but I hadn't re-run it since then. This will become part of the standard set of drills to run on every dive)

    Shutdowns. There's an issue with shutting down the O2 valve on a Revo which is the "leaky valve" will run down the first stage pressure leaving the first stage unpressurised and thus vulnerable to loostening and being unable to repressurise after turning back on. This is the same problem for all rebreathers with a stuck solenoid.

    I did turn the O2 off; I did depressurise the O2 system; it did erupt in a cloud of bubbles when turned back on. Thankfully, it re-connected after turning off and on twice more. It was impossible for me to reach the valve seal whilst wearing the unit. Solutions to this -- aside from bailing out -- would be to run the unit on diluent only (MOD1) or connect an off-board rich gas (MOD2).

    I concluded that in a bailout scenario the O2 should be left switched on to avoid the risk of depressurising the O2 first stage and leaving it vulnerable to flooding (and needing a service).
     
  4. barrygoss

    barrygoss Active Member

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    Air came out. Water went in before that. Salt or fresh cos it’s in the solenoid now.

    If air came out, it wasn’t sealed.

    B
     
  5. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Thanks for that lovely news :)
     
  6. barrygoss

    barrygoss Active Member

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    See. Not learning or thinking.

    That was a basic understanding of physics.

    De Pressurise a stage underwater and what happens (that’s from your OC days) it’s a gob of water as it purges through.

    It’s not rocket surgery.

    B
     
  7. Dave Whitlow

    Dave Whitlow Super Moderator
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    This was mentioned in post #95.

    Water in the first stage too and moisture in the cylinder is a possibility.

    There are bonus points for solving this equation... water+oxygen+steel= ????
     
  8. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Cylinder won't have water ingress as it wasn't empty.

    Regs are designed to cope with water ingress otherwise they'd be exceedingly unreliable. For example, standard rich decompression stages are kept off, although pressurised, but this can easily empty if the second stage is purged or any leaks.

    As for a rebreather, it'll be a small amount of water that will eventually dry out due to the passing gas. The residue and any sediment passing though the gubbins is the bigger challenge, especially in the microscopic leaky valve orifice. Have to say that one would expect that one of the core requirements of a rebreather is to cope with this.

    I frequently check that the orifice is running correctly during the build process: should take 15 seconds to drain from 150 to 100 bar. If longer, it's blocked. The 15 seconds was measured when the orifice was known to work. Still don't know the IP nor flow rate, just that it matches my quiescent metabolic rate (which I monitor when on the bottom phase of a dive -- the PPO2 would increase).


    Suit inflate cylinders are very prone to flooding as you don't monitor the pressure and especially on a small tin it's easy to empty the tin; do that at depth and water ingress is inevitable. Worse than that, they'll fail a suit inflate as it can't be shot blasted (according to a testing station that failed one of mine).
     
  9. jb2cool

    jb2cool Moderator
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    I know I can do 2 dives on a suit inflate bottle but if just a one dive day I’ll still fill after just one dive. It’s just part of my dive setup routine
     
  10. barrygoss

    barrygoss Active Member

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    Wrong.
    If water is in the system, the whole system is at the same pressure - 200bar. The only thing stopping the water entering the tank from the reg is orientation.

    Salt crystals in the solenoid and orifice. Salt crystals and high pressure O2.

    B
     
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  11. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    So why then is the SOP to feather valves, especially O2 valves? Could also question, god forbid, that the benefit of the A-clamp is the seal's kept under pressure when the gas is turned off.

    Do we see O2 fires caused underwater on rebreathers due to contaminate ingress? (Have seen photos of an Inspo that had been destroyed by an O2 fire; don't know the detail of this incident)
     
  12. barrygoss

    barrygoss Active Member

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    Because feathering is better than dead and the standard advice of having your kit serviced if you suspect water ingress during use can be maintained.

    O2 fires occur when? When turning on, not underwater. The heat is generated by the first movement of the gas into the lp system

    B
     
  13. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Was thinking about a pollutant getting into the first stage from the water, then being ignited when it's re-pressurised. Does assume that the valve re-seals after turning off and on again.

    As an aside, the AP cylinders have a nice slow-start feature which one hopes mitigates adiabatic fires.
     
  14. barrygoss

    barrygoss Active Member

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    Like salt crystals? (Underwater it’s too soon for the crystals to have formed, but when the kits all dried out....
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboluminescence

    B
     
  15. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    You often get bioluminescence in the Thames Estuary and other places. At night you can sometimes see the glowing wake of the boat. Peeing over the side creates a light show; even peeing into the toilet bowl (raw water flush). Maybe it's an age thing.
     
  16. barrygoss

    barrygoss Active Member

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    Different physics but

    B
     
  17. JohnL

    JohnL Well-Known Member

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    For light relief, I'm still lurking - Wibble always has his own views, as for luminescent pee, I nearly wet myself!
     
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  18. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Big reels (keep on turning)

    Have bought another Kent Tooling 100m narrow composite reel. Another because I bought one three years ago and sold it after two dives, on OC it was horrible. It turns out that on CCR the big reel is brilliant. A real asset to the dive, not only because it simplifies the ascent, but because it moderates the deco stops. OK, maybe having three more years of diving experience helps too.

    The reel with attached SMB sits nicely on the side of the bottom of the unit. Because of the two stage cylinders (am diving with two to normalise their use in preparation for deeper diving), the reel sits nicely out of the way of any wreckage and is easily accessible when I need to bag up.

    For now I’m still using my 2m Halcyon SMB and inflating it in the same way as I’ve done for hundreds of dives, from my drysuit inflate hose (backups are available on the bailout and deco stages). So reach for the reel, set it to freewheel, remove the SMB and hold the inflator nozzle. With the other hand disconnect the drysuit hose and place on the inflator, look around and up, ensure nothing’s caught, then push it home to inflate. Up goes the bag and the reel spins. Occasionally slow it down or lock the ratchet to get moving (will work on that later).

    Now the ascent is easy. A largish diameter reel means fewer turns and the ratchet means it won’t unwind if dropped. Simply stop winding to dump from the wing or inject oxygen, dumping from the suit shoulder dump or clearing the counterlungs through the nose (or loose lips) doesn’t need a spare hand.

    Then arrive gently at the first stop. Tweak the PPO2, set the lung volume, and relax..... all’s fine and easy.

    It turns out that weight of the reel really helps to moderate the buoyancy at the deco stop. Instead of constantly worrying about a slight upward or downward movement requiring a gas injection or dump, the reel gives you some weight if you need it to arrest a slight upward movement and the SMB line does the opposite if descending. This then means your buoyancy can be much more neutral. A revelation and suddenly everything is so much easier.

    Even reaching the surface is easier as the reel doesn’t need any special clipping off, although clipping the boltsnap to the SMB means the reel can’t unwind if knocked.


    On the same dive was delighted that I no longer need to worry about gas. Discovered that the 40m wreck was 48m. No problems as I’d selected the "below 30m" gas and bailout; 18/45 with 70%. Lovely dive. Vis of 4 to 6m and just under an hour on the bottom with the main worry of the 2h runtime for the skipper (and all the other divers waiting). A fiver for the trimix very well spent.

    Just loving life as a CCR diver.

    Pity the weather’s cancelling more dives than are running.
     
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  19. Vanny

    Vanny Well-Known Member

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    Nice to hear , glad the reel is working for you.
     
  20. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Yesterday's dive was a little more spicy. Skipper made a great call to use the brief window between Wednesday's storm and Storm Alex. Was quite comfortable steaming out to the wreck, but the wind increased and changed direction whilst we were down.

    Did a couple of hours with an hour of deco. Again, getting to like the reel and now seeing the benefit of an auto-inflating SMB (yet to be decided upon).

    As usual, the decompression stops are lovely and calm. The only clue to the weather above being the reel jumping up and down. After putting up with this for a while, I finally relented and let out a couple of metres of line and dropped the reel to bounce up and down below me -- this demonstrating the sheer quality of the Kent Tooling mechanism. Used a double-ender held in the hand and wrapped around the line to prevent glove chaffing. If the buoyancy needed any fine tweaking I could just pinch the line to get a little bit of weight or lift to avoid injecting/dumping gas in the wing.

    Nice dive. Vis not brilliant, but enough to enjoy the dive.

    The steam back to port was a bit spicy though. All of us keeping our drysuits on and sitting on the floor sheltering behind the (off-limits) cabin.

    Kudos to the skipper for such a great weather call.
     
    #140 Wibble, Oct 2, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020

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