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Twinset build

Discussion in 'Dive Equipment' started by Mako-JD, Sep 26, 2017.

  1. Mako-JD

    Mako-JD Active Member

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    Ok. Cash available now for twinset so question time

    https://www.dirdirect.com/IST-Dolphin-Tech-Twinset-Wing.html

    Any thoughts on this wing. I have a frog single wing now with SS backplate so just swap bladders.

    Main choice now is tins. 12l euros or 12l apeks long
    I have had a dive with a apeck Long and compared to a faber 12l steel I found very little difference in trim, this was on single config

    Price difference between the 2 is £30

    Thx
     
  2. hawk

    hawk Doing It Rong
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    A few comments / obeservations from me.

    I know this is contentious but 50lbs is a big bag of air and you don't need a wing that big. The biggest I ever dived with twins (and a couple of stages) was a 40 and my current SM rig is on a 25lb wing.

    When diving singles, the weight and distribution of weight has a limited effect and is variable dependent upon cam band location. With twins the effect is (obvs) doubled you are more likely to notice.

    Round bottom euros are less tail heavy than flat bottom

    There is a thread of here somewhere where you will find a wide variation in weights of the same cylinders - IIRC I had light euros which were more than 1.5kg lighter than other Euros and 2kgs lighter than Fabers.

    Second hand is even cheaper ;)
     
  3. Mako-JD

    Mako-JD Active Member

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    I have been looking around for second hand but nothing suitable has come up yet

    When figure the price of testing (most tins seen on fleabay are out of test) is not far away from new price.
     
  4. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    The aim of the wing is to only counteract the weight of the gas you consume (3.6kg). You're adding lead to get you to sink. 18kg/40lbs is more than enough. I've a 40lb Halcyon Evolve and have never had issues with having enough buoyancy. These occasionally come up - £200 second hand is the right price.

    Flat bottom cylinders are massively more convenient. It's a personal choice, but I like to be able to stand them up on their own. They're a little more tail-heavy so less weight required. Having said that, I've also a set of round-bottom tins and they're not that difficult to stand up in practice.

    It's often said that Apeks valves are the best. I'm not so sure now as I've had to replace one of my Apeks valves as it broke and I've heard of other people with problems (@Tribal Chestnut). Also my Apeks manifold is stiff following an O2 clean; need to return it.

    Don't know about GoDive, but they've got a good deal on at the moment: http://www.godive.net/brands/apeks/apeks-12-ltr-long-sidemount-cylinder-410/ and flat-bottom Euros for £429.


    Has anyone any opinion on the Apeks WTX D45 Wing? They look as if they fit the part.
     
  5. Tribal Chestnut

    Tribal Chestnut Active Member
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    I had a D45, it was ok, but I prefer the Evolve that I have now.

    I've never dived with flat Euros, only round bottoms and Fabers. Can't say I noticed much difference between them, aside from the longer Euros being nicer to kit up with, but a better diver might.
     
  6. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    "Apeks" are just Euros with a sticker on aren't they? Only the bands and valves change between brands. Same with the other varients that you'll see BTS, Halcyon etc.

    The choice is really between flat / round bottom euros and fabers. I like the flat euros and have no problem with the cheaper generic valves.

    The GoDive deal does look good value. But then it's GoDive and, for various reasons, I wouldn't shop with them if you paid me.


    I've got an Apeks horseshoe 45lb wing because it was dirt cheap and an xDeep 40lb donut. The donut is much much nicer in the water. It's also fine with an ali stage. However, the extra 5lb is notable on the surface in a bit of swell. Find a donut wing between 40-50lb and I don't think you'll go wrong.
     
  7. timmyg

    timmyg Super Moderator
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    Mako-JD and AndyW like this.
  8. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    > Apeks tins
    They are odd: kind of slightly rounded but won't stand up on their own.
     
  9. Dave Whitlow

    Dave Whitlow Well-Known Member

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    If think you need a little more than 3.6kg. In addition to the total weight of gas in the cylinders you might need to compensate for the lost buoyancy resulting from a catastrophic suit flood and also the weight of stages and the gas contained therein and also the weight of anything you elect to bring up from the seabed as well as your shiny reel, crack bottle and other tat and lead you are carrying.
     
  10. Tribal Chestnut

    Tribal Chestnut Active Member
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    They will, sometimes.

    Regarding my earlier post, I have not actually dived with round Euros, just the Apeks ones
     
  11. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Yep. Although the stages might not be as much as some aluminium cylinders are buoyant (I'm not allowed to mention gas weights am I?)

    One of the uses for a decent sized SMB; haul yourself up in extremis. Hence carrying the second backup one.

    I did see a picture of a diver from the 90's with a lead-acid battery for an umbilical halogen torch. Bloody massive! That would have been a reason for having one of those mahoosive double-bladdered 96lb OMS wings which needed the bungees to retract the enormous amount of bag when not inflated.

    I also saw a geezer in Stoney walking around with a red 96lb OMS wing which was inflated. Looked like a cross between Buzz Lightyear and an inflatable dinghy! Only thing missing was the outboard.
     
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  12. nickb

    nickb Active Member

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    Have you ever tried ‘hauling yourself up in extremis’?

    I’m happy to bet my house right now that you haven’t, ever.

    Dragging yourself up under an ascending bag is OK, but winching yourself up under a bag using the reel is a non-starter. There’s no mechanical advantage, if you were heavy at the bottom, you’d stay there and drown.

    You need to stop offering this bullshit advice Glenn. One day some idiot is going to read one of your posts and think that 3.6kg of buoyancy is all they’ll need to get themselves out of dodge, let alone ‘in extremis’.
     
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  13. Dave Whitlow

    Dave Whitlow Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I worry someone will believe this weird line in misinformation. I hauled a 15kg bag of scallops up today and there was no way I was not using a lift bag. Perhaps @Wibble you need a serious lift bag as your 'get me home now' plan? I gather they work on port holes too.
     
  14. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    And the rules for this challenge? Sit on the bottom with full cylinders, dump all gas from wing & suit, launch blob, then haul? It should be well under 10 kg. Agreed, it'll be a bit tougher with my spool.

    No house bet, but I'll give it a try one day.
     
  15. Dave Whitlow

    Dave Whitlow Well-Known Member

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    Rules? Challenge? Have you considered a hobby where your ideas are less hazardous? Origami looks promising, perhaps arranging flowers might work.

    A spool is a ridiculous solution to anything outside a cave or a quarry or inside a wreck. They have a place but most UK diving is not that place.
     
  16. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Piss-taking aside, and being serious for a moment, what is the weight you'd need to haul up if your wing and drysuit is compromised? Your rig should be balanced so you shouldn't be overly heavy.


    Spools are cheap, simple, very convenient and fit nicely in pockets. It's a personal choice maybe. I keep two full-sized SMBs pre-attached to ~50m spools in my pockets along with other spools, spare mask, wetnotes and other crap. Reels are normally too big to fit in a pocket and tend to be stowed externally.

    I have a big reel but hate using it because of its size and weight, along with a heavy crack-bottle SMB which can only be launched when you're vertical (bringing all that weight forwards tips one over).
     
  17. reefer

    reefer Member

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    With regards to the flat bottom 12l Euros. I have one for my single Wing.

    Does anyone have any issue with the paint scratching off on the bottom of these. I appreciate I *could* put a boot on, but then I would have got a round bottom Euro if I wanted a boot : )

    Presumably paint scratching off any exposes bare steel increases the risk of rust - I have a couple of small exposed areas where the paint has chipped off?
    Anyone tried touch up paint?

    Or do I just need to learn to be more careful..
     
  18. Vanny

    Vanny Active Member

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    I had flat bottom euros and previously fabers. The euros are nicer, heavier which is a bonus if you need it. I dived mine with 5kg BP and no lead. If your happy with no ditchable weight it's a lovely way to dive. If you ended up on fabers it's not the end of the world there fine but the euros just seem to trim nice and are slightly taller when your kitting up, good if your normal less so for ickle people. Not happy without ditchable weight? normal BP and a few KGs on a belt. V weights are an option but again not ditchable.

    On both cylinders I used an Agir Niord 20kg wing. No issues with lift or surface support, great wing to dive.

    Take equipment that's suitable to the conditions and the planned dive. Minimal size smb's and spools are inadequate for diving around the UK coast line. A decent reel and good size DSMB are required. Get used to carrying it and clipping off to your kit somewhere appropriate. They don't have to get in the way , engineer a way to carry it round by your arse , make sure you can reach it. If your carrying one , twos better. So a small back up and spool in a pocket, along with your back up mask.

    I also previously dived the infamous 96ib lift twin bladder OMS wing, with fabers, ally BP. whilst I agree this isn't the optimal way to dive nowadays as kit has moved on there's actually nothing wrong with it. You'll find endless issues concerning this kit on the interturd. I never dived mine on the interturd so in the real world these just work. Fully inflated their huge, but I rarely ever fully inflated it. Uninflated it was smaller than any wing I now own.

    You can optimise your diving kit choice but the only way to optimise your diving is time in the water and familiarity with your kit. Flat trim etc etc is achievable in any kit it just takes practice and time.
     
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  19. Dave Whitlow

    Dave Whitlow Well-Known Member

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    If both sources of buoyancy are compromised you are having a very bad day and will be grateful for your buddy. Planning for some situations is probably over-thinking the issue.
    My crack bottle and big CD reel are clipped to the d-ring of my AP wing and I have a 50m CD reel and CO2 SMB in my pocket. The big reel doesn't get in the way and can be deployed quickly. This is normally from the seabed, sometime quite deep, so ease of use is important as every minute at the seabed can add another two minutes to surface and the skipper will be expecting me to not be late.

    I don't have any issue staying horizontal when I deploy my crack bottle and it usually only takes a few seconds. In any case, I wouldn't be too bothered as I will be going more vertical, to keep the suit dump high, for the ascent to my first stop using the ascending SMB to maintain ascent speed. I am not sure ascending at 10-15m/minute in perfect trim is a desirable target whereas getting to that first stop quickly is important, as is stopping upon arrival.
     
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  20. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Mine are well battle-scarred. The rust is pretty much just on the surface and gets rubbed off when it's moved. I guess it would make a difference in the long term.

    Thought: wonder if keeping them in a dry garage so the rust doesn't seem to take hold. Also rinse them off (occasionally) to get the salt juices off.
     
    reefer likes this.

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