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Long hose or not long hose

Discussion in 'Technical Diving' started by Iain Denham, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    So the awnser is to promote the same discipline with ALL systems as we currently have with many
    (but not all) of those that use long-hose.

    That's getting away from the kit itself being the awnser and more about taking responsibilty for
    whatever system you use.
     
  2. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Well, yes but no but yes but no....

    There's the practice part.

    There's the kit part.

    Then there's the reality part.

    The longhose intrinsically promotes better practice purely because the regulator that's going to be donated/used/taken/whatever is in your gob and working (and has the right gas, yada yada yada...). As one is well aware that you're going to be loosing that regulator at any time, you make damn sure that your backup is in place and working.

    The reality is that the octopus becomes a second-class citizen and can become disused simply because it's so rarely used. It's also extremely easy for the octopus to become dislodged and an "unaware" diver drags it in the silt/behind them, or knotted up in some tucked away tangle.
     
  3. furryman

    furryman hmmmm
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    Irrelevant. On twins or single I hog-loop, and don't really care what you may think can be sorted "in ten seconds".
    On the box, it's another skill set.
     
  4. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    Nah you still refuse to get it :)

    The config is irrelevant.
    If the diver practices he will be good, if the diver doesnt practice he will be bad.

    To be a true comparison the circumstances need to be indentical, so either BOTH
    systems have divers that are inept or BOTH systems have divers that are brilliant,
    don't big-up one to suit your POV.
     
    #84 Tel, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  5. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    You used the term "almost impossible to use as a backup " when refering to use of the Octopus
    which is a factualy incorrect statement, as it's a very easy skill to both teach and learn.

    I fail to see how what you do with twins or single hog-loop has any bearing on that statement.
     
    #85 Tel, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  6. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Two points, again:
    1) The longhose config is inherently more safe than the octopus.
    2) Longhose users practice
     
  7. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    1) = False :)
    The longhose config is only safer than the octopus in particular circumstances,
    but that applies as equally to the Octopus.

    2) = False :)
    Longhose users don't all practice
     
  8. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    1) the longhose configuration is inherently more safe than the octopus.
    • The regulator is guaranteed to work and be in good condition - you were breathing from it.
    • The backup is necklaced into position under your chin and can't escape
    • The backup will have been tested as its owner knows that the backup is his/her regulator when donating
    • The longhose cannot escape when it is being breathed, i.e. won't fly behind you/drag in the silt when in use
    2) longhose users practice
    • Every time the hose is wrapped the user is practising lifting it off and on
    • There's greater awareness of the configuration ergo a propensity to get it right
    • Typically the standards of training for longhose users is much higher
    Of course BSAC considers the longhose to be -- sorry, all I read was blah blah blah we didn't invent it blah blah ... All other agencies including CMAS, the world diving body, accept and promote the use of the longhose configuration for higher risk diving, e.g. technical diving. Therefore it *must* be safer.
     
  9. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    A scenario...
    Descend down the shot. Vis not great. Another diver kicks a fin in my face and knocks my mask and reg off my face.

    1) longhose config. Scoop the backup reg from under my chin. Breathe. Then sort out the mask,.

    2) octopus rig. Sweep procedure strike 1. Stress levels going through the roof. Did I get the hose. Shit, no. Arrghhhh I'm going to drown... Sweep again. Strike two. No, damn it. I'm really really worried, where's the backup... I can't see..... Grope around and finally get the octopus. It's upside down as I threaded it from the left... Just get a breath..... Panic and terror....

    There is actually a 1a) my buddy sees this and thrusts his longhose reg straight into my mouth.

    Scenario 2 has always been my biggest fear in uk diving. Frights like that make people give up diving.
     
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  10. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    Guaranteed to work and good condition, regs have never failed in use then - ever, oh sorry yes they have.
    Necklaced rigs don't escape, yeah right i've seen at least three go walkiies.
    The backup will have been tested true, but that doesnt mean it will deploy cleanly if it's been poorly rigged.
    The long hose can escape if it's been rigged poorly, maybe not to the point of dragging, but caught on something,
    yeah easy.

    The longhose configaration is not inherently more safe then the octopus as it requires the correct
    config, discipline and practice by the user which can apply as equally to the octopus.


    Lol. not all longhose users practice anynore than all octopus users practice.

    The hose might be wrapped around the cylinder for all you know.
    There is no guarantee that an inept diver will be nore aware anymore than the octopus.
    Well you at least got one thing right, the training standards for long-hose tends to be higher, but
    the same Instructor would teach octopus just as diligently, so that in itself doesnt help much.


    Bit slow, BSAC are currently writing a PD/long-hose SDC :p

    Long-hose is used primarily for tech training, in the rec world it's so little a sample rate that it almost
    doesnt register. As we have no data that says long-hose taught and used substantially at rec level is
    safer, it's a bogus statement.


    This is the sad bit though, divers worldwide need to improve there game we all know that, but that
    doesnt happen by calling what they use now shit. Instead of attacking the octopus let's start informing
    and educating divers to what they use right now. That changes the diver not the config and if we can
    make it socially unacceptable to have eg: a reg dragging in the silt, then divers will take responsibilty
    for themselves.

    Stop using kit to apologise for poor diver training etc.and using alternatives as some miraculous crutch.
     
  11. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    2) Is indicative of a simple failure in training as what you've described is someone who has never been taught
    how to use the octopus as the primary when attached to the left.
     
  12. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    A quick pause...

    We all agree that...
    • Training and on-going practice is essential.
    • There are different kit configurations
    • There are some below average divers (that's the point of an average, some are above, some are below).
    • Completely sorted and working equipment in untrained or incompetent hands will fail.
    • Changing one's kit configuration without practising or training is not good.
    And...
    1. I think we all agree that training is just a point in time; to be truly competent one must continually practice.
    2. Not sure we agree that technical divers (or wannabe technical divers) train more than recreational divers
    3. We do not agree about intrinsic safety differences between different kit configurations.
     
    JohnL likes this.
  13. Doomanic

    Doomanic Dinosaur Wrangler
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    Tel, I've generally been in agreement with you on this topic, but this...
    Is taking the piss!

    If the Beserkers are writing it without help from their new sticky friends it'll be a clusterfuck.
     
    Wibble likes this.
  14. hawk

    hawk Doing It Rong
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    The answer is simple - everyone should dive sidemount.:)

    That way any concerns over the second reg not having been used are allayed - because they will have been tested in use.

    All sidemount divers are highly skilled dive ninjas who would immediately spot an OOG diver and deploy the long hose before that diver had any issues

    Each reg can be used easily as primary and secondary

    There are 2 independent sources of gas
     
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  15. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Point 3 - certain rigs are inherently more safe than others.

    From the scenario proposed above, where the regulator gets knocked out of one's gob (from left to right, the worst way)...

    Octopus

    The 'standard' recreational "octopus" configuration has the primary regulator on a longish (80+cm hose passing from the first stage over the diver's right shoulder and into the reg in the mouth. The octopus backup regulator is generally on a longer yellow hose (92cm) and is most commonly passed under the right armpit and soft-clipped (e.g. stuffed in a golf-ball, magnetic clip, velcro clip, and countless other clips designed to break away when pulled) into the golden triangle (neck and chest), with the excess hose frequently stuffed away or soft-clipped elsewhere.

    The big problem with this rig configuration is that the main and octopus regulators aren't permanently constrained and will naturally fly around behind the diver if they fall loose. Therefore the "sweep" technique has been developed where the diver has to bring his arm behind his back to get under the hoses and bring them round. Given the limited arm movement behind one's back, this is a poor technique as it's not guaranteed to catch the hose(s), especially if the hoses have wrapped right round, or have caught behind the cylinder (or pony, or whatever else is behind there).

    I remember this from my OW training as it's bloody horrible trying to get an errant hose captured in the 10 seconds before blind panic sets in.

    The octopus also has a failing in that it's designed to break away. This means that it can and will fall out of it's holding device if knocked. Generally this means it dangles below the diver and as it's not in your line of sight, it'll frequently stay there. Ultimately the hose will deploy and could end up behind the diver, particularly when in "vertical trim".

    If the pressure's on and suddenly someone's knocked the reg from your gob, you'll be surprised and the clock's massively ticking until you can breathe again. It's a countdown to blind terror and panic as you first try to sweep the hose back, then fall back to the octopus.

    Longhose

    The primary longhose is wrapped around the body, down from the first stage, under the light battery cannister (or knife, or tucked in the waistband), up across the chest to the left of the head, around the neck, and into the gob.

    The backup regulator is on a *very* short hose, *just* long enough to allow the head to turn, and rests just below the chin on a bungeed "necklace". This necklace is just long enough to get it over the head, but not too long to let it dangle.

    You normally breathe from the longhose (primary) regulator and will donate this to an OOG diver by grabbing the hose next to the regulator with your right hand and in one smooth movement, pull the reg from your mouth, the hose over your head and arm stretched out it's given to the OOG diver. As soon as the hose is clear (when your right arm is extended), you use your left hand to scoop the backup regulator from under your chin and into your mouth and continue to breathe.

    Scenario: the primary regulator is kicked from your mouth.

    Firstly, the regulator can't get far away as it's wrapped around your neck. So the chances are you lift your right hand up and grab the regulator and put it back in your mouth. But lets say it's been kicked right behind your head and tangled up in your valves... Well, the hose is in a known position to the left of your neck; grab the hose and follow it to the regulator, re-stow the hose behind your head, and put the regulator back in your mouth. OK, what if it's tangled behind you and you can't free it... You would simply use your left hand to scoop the backup regulator from beneath your chin into your mouth - just as practiced for OOG.

    No issues, no panic, all in control.

    Conclusion

    The standard "octopus" configuration has a severe weakness in that the regulators and hoses are free to fly behind the diver and are difficult to recover.

    The standard longhose configuration has hoses which are controlled and cannot fly free.

    Therefore the longhose configuration is inherently more safe than the octopus.
     
  16. JohnL

    JohnL Well-Known Member

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    This may be controversial but after 94 responses, I think everything has been said, maybe several times :joyful:
     
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  17. Nick Ward

    Nick Ward Active Member

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    Speaking as total newbie (still working through OD) the concept of primary donate and longhouse configuration sounds far more intuitive to me... obviously BSAC will now excommunicate me, but it sounds easier, safer and neater...

    That said, I'm a trainee OD diver, so i'm fastidiously learning AS drills with my octopus, whilst taking up yoga to help with the contortions needed to recover the DV and loving it ;)
     
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  18. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    Yes to all apart from 3 :)

    We do not agree about intrinsic safety differences between different kit configerations, because of the use of
    diver training as a crutch to support a particular config.

    The ONLY way to be objective is to create a level playing field where the diver is either inept or skilled and compare
    both in specific enviroments.



    Is a long-hose better than an octopus if using mixed gas?
    = Yes, because the receiver will always have the right gas for that depth.
    I've defined the enviroment and why it's better.

    Does this reason alone make the long-hose better than the Octopus = No, because the overwhelming majority of
    rec divers don't use mixed gas, which makes this benefit irrelevant to rec.
     
  19. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    All I can surmise is your negativity towards the Octopus is based on poor initial training, because none of what you
    describe and atribute to the octopus is true if decent training in the technique is given.

    For a start the sweep is a poor term as it's not actually a sweep, if you don't know the difference and the additional
    controls to make sure it works, that's indicative of the problem.

    Similarly the use of the octopus for own primary has to be a known drill, so in the event of any problem this is a viable
    alternative with a protocol that ensures it works regardless of where it's rigged.


    Sorry I've spent a lot of years and trained a lot of students the discipine of how to use and how not to use the Octopus
    so they are easily on a par with someone drilled in long-hose use and have removed the assumed problems as a result.

    Sure a lot (and I mean a lot) of divers have poor skills and will live up to your stereotype, but that's not the config,
    that's all down to poor training by the initial Instructor.
     
    Iain Denham likes this.
  20. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    That's what I've been saying in my scenario.

    Not sure I mentioned that point, very important for technical diving, but it's not relevant for recreational diving.

    You have missed all my other points regarding the hoses being under control and precisely positioned and the relative susceptibility of the different systems to control the hoses when something untoward happens.



    Anyway, for the purposes of me - and possibly others - learning, what's the correct technique to recover an errant hose and regulator that's flying behind your head?

    I was taught to drop my right shoulder, preferably to lean to the right, push my hand & arm behind me, straighten my arm and hopefully it'll catch the hose as I bring my arm back.
     

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