1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Long hose or not long hose

Discussion in 'Technical Diving' started by Iain Denham, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,748
    Likes Received:
    616
    So what skill were you doing?
    Standard AS ascent (and CBL's) are based on face to face lifts where the hose isnt a factor.
     
  2. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    140
    So what if I used a long hose in the correct manner but on a single as I am sure I can manage (with a bit of coaching) to not stuff my octo in a pocket and manage to deploy correctly?
     
  3. hawk

    hawk Doing It Rong
    UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,411
    Likes Received:
    495
    Correct - but you would be surprised by how over weighted some were (so they were invariably not face to face) and also how many tried to stuff the reg in their mouths upside down or who kinked the hose.
     
  4. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
    UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2014
    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,071
    You can easily use a longhose on a single. This will be my holiday config this summer.

    If you're not diving with a cannister torch - which is used to tuck the hose under - you can use a slightly shorter longhose (1.5m) which wraps under your RH armpit. The other alternative is to use the full 2.1m hose and tuck it under a knife on your belt, or (I believe) you can tuck it in your waistband.

    Some big benefits: ease of access to the backup (under your chin on a necklace), stability of the longhose which won't fly off if it's knocked out of your mouth, ease of doffing your kit in the water whilst breathing from the longhose.
     
  5. MikeyH

    MikeyH Active Member
    UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    53
    Guys - just a point - Iain seems to be referring to using the LH on the octo (unless I am seriously mistaken) - Wibble (unless I am seriously mistaken again) is referrring to using the LH on his primary.
     
  6. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,748
    Likes Received:
    616
    That's not the hoses fault though, that's poor kit config and pre-training.
    A long hose would be as big a CF if the users were that bad.
     
  7. Doomanic

    Doomanic Dinosaur Wrangler
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Messages:
    5,541
    Likes Received:
    1,977
    As Wibble has said, a long primary hose on a single is no problem. I use the same 2.1m hose as my twinset regs and stuff the hose in my waistband. Backup goes on a necklace, just as on my twinset. Long hose is deployed in an OOG and backup goes in my gob, just as on my twinset

    Do you use a jacket BCD or a wing?
     
  8. hawk

    hawk Doing It Rong
    UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,411
    Likes Received:
    495
    Not if donated correctly :) But I agree with what you say
     
  9. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    140
    I have both, but prefer a bcd?
     
  10. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,748
    Likes Received:
    616
    True, but then the same applies if an Octopus is donated correctly :)
     
  11. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
    UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2014
    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,071
    I've just seen your avatar and the yellow hose under your left arm:)

    Is that the case Iain?

    I'm definitely referring to the "standard" longhose - used as the primary and a (very) short hose to the backup under my throat on a necklace bungee.
     
  12. furryman

    furryman hmmmm
    Staff Member UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    524
    I hate to argue, but surely an octopus is "taken" not "donated" according to the protocols of the two largest training agencies in the UK?

    A primary is "donated".
    (And therein lies the rub).
     
  13. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    140
    That's my wing rig my BCD rig the hose comes over the top of my shoulder, and yes long hose on the octo.
     
  14. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,748
    Likes Received:
    616

    Octopus is both grabbed and donated, just depends on the agency, the world
    doesnt revoilve around BSAC :)

    When making a comparison as in this case of a donated primary it's like for
    like so the comparison is a donated octopus.
     
  15. Doomanic

    Doomanic Dinosaur Wrangler
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Messages:
    5,541
    Likes Received:
    1,977
    I said no before and I'll say no again. Long hose on the octo is, in my opinion, a bad idea. It flies in the face of convention and in the event of a panicking diver grabbing the reg in your gob, is no use whatsoever.
    I would also say that the long hose does not lend itself to BCD users and if you are intent on switching from that to the wing and back again you should stick with short hoses.
     
    Iain Denham likes this.
  16. furryman

    furryman hmmmm
    Staff Member UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    524
    Tel,
    I mentioned no names, but instead specified the TWO largest training agencies in the UK. My training in both of those agencies involved starfish/"make available" and grab. I do recognise that one of those agencies is somewhat less prescriptive in this than the other, but nonetheless, the protocol drummed into most UK students involves grab for an octopus, from somewhere in the magic triangle (not stuffed in a pocket as i saw mentioned as being club standard on another forum recently, or dragging in the sand as I normally see for myself on holiday).

    Donating a primary involves two positive actions on the part of the donor (unless you want to breathe water), so I disagree with you that it is "like for like" when compared with handing over an octopus, where the only action required of the donor is to present the chest area where the large yellow life-preserving thing appears as if by magic. (Rather akin to a dog presenting its belly for a rub, I always think)
     
  17. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,748
    Likes Received:
    616


    Look again at the post and what the point was :)

    I said IF the octopus is donated correctly.

    This was a comparison between donate primary vs donate octopus, makes not a jot of difference
    what the agency is or what country it's based in, because all that's important here is a level playing
    field to make the comparison.

    I could have said if the octopus was grabbed correctly, but that would make no sense when comparing
    with a donated primary.

    Do some rec agencies still teach donate octopus = yes, so it's still valed method and perfectly acceptabe
    to use for comparison.
     
  18. furryman

    furryman hmmmm
    Staff Member UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    524
    Look again at what I said... if the person that learnt with the two largest agencies in the UK follows his/her training properly, then the octopus is not "donated"... OOG response relies on a similarly-trained person "grabbing" said octopus once access has been granted.

    Therefore primary donate cannot be compared with octopus donate, because octopus donate should not happen: our so-called National Governing Body has no protocol for donating an octopus and says it should not happen. Therefore it won't, 'cos them's the rules :)whistling:).

    ANYWAY... the larger issue with octopus is which way round it is rigged: my initial training rigged it to come under my right arm (which allowed me to swap/test/use as backup when primary lost etc, but less conveninet to present to recipient, leading to the "in your face" configuration on ascent. My BSAC clubs have favoured yellow hose under left arm, making it almost impossible to use as a backup, but easier to present to a recipient.

    Long hose gives the advantages of both these layouts, with the slight complication of having more hose to stow, but with the added advantage of being able to swim out line astern through a restriction from an overhead environment.
    Stowage is a minor issue... William Hogarth Main solved that one.

    And don't get me started on divers with ponies or indie twins with three identical regs.... :mad:
    One thing we CAN agree on though... it's the diver not the kit that makes the difference, and simply having the right kit means nothing unless the diver knows how to use it properly.
     
    Wibble likes this.
  19. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,748
    Likes Received:
    616
    What you said is entirely irrelevant, you were replying to MY post, so I set the parameters not you :p

    I'm talking about the skill of the indivdual and to do that we need to make a similar comparison.
    Is donate Octopus a legitimate skill? = yes, so it can used for comparsion even if you or the
    Governing body don't like it :)

    It's a different concept,that a OOG diver needs control to prevent the risk of panic, hence face to face.
    It also mmics the position of CBL, so the divers skillbase is the same for both skills. If neccessary a
    ascent can turn into a CBL, without any major cahnge in procedure even on the ascent.

    Face to face has many advantages over the distance of long-hose with more inexperinced divers and
    as that's the majority of divers tends to be the more common.

    BTW using the Octopus as a backup is not impossible at all, in fact it's stupidly easy and taught in
    about ten seconds and mastered in about a minute :) Without being nasty if you or club think it's
    almost impossible, that needs to be rectified as it could make a difference in a fubar.

    Well the regs are all different on my 3 reg twindies, so that's sorted then :p
     
    #79 Tel, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  20. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
    UKD Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2014
    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,071
    Some common points are being raised.

    Training and practice are blindingly obvious requirements.

    I can only speak from my own personal experiences. Since moving down the Technical Diving path, I've found that the whole Out-Of-Gas scenario is practised time and time again until it becomes an automatic response. The other day I was happily diving when I saw the torch signal and I turned around with my regulator and longhose in my hand and thrust it into the face/reach of my buddy, it's so automatic I don't need to think.

    However, prior to taking the technical option, I cannot remember practising this in the Recreational mode. I've shared gas with a buddy, but never practiced it except for the initial Open Water or Advanced Open Water courses.

    Another common point is regulator placement.

    With the longhose, you're more likely to have a practised and experienced donor who will be more switched on regarding what's going on around them. So the primary donate vs take is completely moot: the donor should be there with reg in hand and breathing off their backup.

    With the octopus, there ARE issues with placement. I've seen countless examples of where people have kinked the octopus hose in some tiny hole; I've frequently seen the octopus flying out behind or below the diver; and I've seen some strange configurations where it requires the OOG diver to be almost at chest height to breathe. The octopus is frequently a very poorly looked after regulator as it's just not used - I wouldn't like to rely on one out of choice.


    So yes, it's self-evident that practice makes perfect. I just don't see people practising outside of the technical world where the longhose was developed. I also don't see the general care lavished on the octopus that I see when people are using a longhose.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Our UKDivers community has been around for many years and prides itself on offering unbiased, helpful discussion among people of all disciplines and abilities. We are working every day to make sure our community is one of the best and friendliest around.
  • Support us!

    The management works very hard to make sure the community continues to run reliably. Care to support us? All donations go to the running costs of the forum: hosting charges, software maintenance, etc. We'd really appreciate it!

    Choose option:  

    UKD Username: