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Long hose or not long hose

Discussion in 'Technical Diving' started by Iain Denham, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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    That is the question?

    I was pondering this when trying someones twin 12 the other week and they had a long hose, now as a PADI trained converted to BSAC 15 and a 3ltr bail out ;) man I have a standard octo in the "triangle".

    So whats the pros and cons for a RECREATIONAL DEPTH DIVER only who dose not do cave diving?

    I`m taught on an oog situation let them take the reg and grab the bc and control the ascent not send the packing to a meter or so away!

    Whats the benefits either way please and if there are many benefits should all rigs be with a long hose (subject to training ect)?
     
  2. jb2cool

    jb2cool Moderator
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    Very much personal choice. I find that the long hose gives you both room so that you are not struggling and fighting against each other, you can also donate the reg to the person needing it actively helping them rather than relying on them helping themself by grabbing the reg from you. I think a long hose also keeps the hoses tidier with less dangle.

    I've used a long hose primary donate setup pretty much since qualified so used it in tropical water and UK, reefs and wrecks. To me (and this is my personal view) it just works and suits all environments.
     
    MikeyH likes this.
  3. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    My personal opinion follows. Other opinions are available from other people....

    I think the long hose is the *only* way to go and I cannot understand why it's not the standard for everyone with open circuit. That goes for complete beginners.

    Benefits of the long hose:
    • You always know where it is
    • The donor always knows where the backup is (on a necklace under his/her chin)
    • The donor always has a reason to ensure the backup works
    • It's easy for the donor to check that the backup works - take reg out of mouth, put backup in its place, breathe
    • When donating, it's an automatic reaction to push the regulator straight into the face of the person who needs it
    • Once donated, there's room to move around; no need to hug each other
    • The primary and backup regulators stay near your mouth regardless of what happens
    • Donation drills are frequently practised
    I cannot see any drawbacks.
    I can see loads of drawbacks on the short hose & octopus:
    • If the main regulator falls out of your mouth, it'll fly out behind you and you've got two sweeps before utter terror strikes
    • The octopus is often stuffed into some crevice which is a sod to get to
    • The octopus also flys out behind you or falls into the silt if it gets unclipped
    • The octopus can be in different locations
    • The octopus is rarely tested by the donor, certainly not on every dive
    • The octopus needs the donor to look at it to get it free
    • The hoses are short, so you have to hug each other and it's much harder to do other things such as putting up an SMB when you're in such close proximity
    • Octopus/donation drills are rarely practised
    But this is my opinion, we'll wait for others.
     
  4. Griffalo

    Griffalo Active Member

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    Something else to add to the original post:
    With a short hose and octopus the octopus and its short hose are normally yellow. If one was to convert to a long hose setup for recreational diving would you still have one yellow (as that is what other recreational divers expect) and if so, which regulator would be the yellow one? The primary/long or the backup?
     
  5. jb2cool

    jb2cool Moderator
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    I myself don't have a yellow reg, both of mine are black. If I was to have a yellow one then I think it would make sense to have that on the primary reg (the one I'd donate in the event of emergency)
     
  6. becky9

    becky9 Diving bore!

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    Hey look it works for me now ;)

    Anyway, something I heard.... 'a long hose is especially dangerous when it gets caught on the huge chip on the shoulder' ;) x
     
  7. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    Ooo can I play :)

    If the main regulator falls out of your mouth, it'll fly out behind you and you've got two sweeps before utter terror strikes

    Or if you really messed up, you could just use the secondary as a primary, but as you've practiced both it's not a problem.

    The octopus is often stuffed into some crevice which is a sod to get to

    The long-hose gets stuffed and wrapped around God kows what as well, so let's not blame poor configs, blame the inept diver..

    The octopus also flys out behind you or falls into the silt if it gets unclipped

    As above, if any of that happens let's blame the diver, kit didnt rig itself.

    The octopus can be in different locations
    So, a good brief will sort out where it is along with the buddy check, you do buddy checks yes?

    The octopus is rarely tested by the donor, certainly not on every dive
    The same diver that doesnt test his Octopus isnt magically going to start testing a necklaced rig, blame the diver not the kit.

    The octopus needs the donor to look at it to get it free
    Needs to know where it is sure, actually look at it no. The buddy check was a take and replace by the donor.

    The hoses are short, so you have to hug each other and it's much harder to do other things such as putting up an SMB when you're in such close proximity
    Yeah that's kinda on purpose, as it's all about physical contact which calms the diver down and means less chance
    of a panic. Bit ironic that the alternate is a long hose to keep the diver away, which considering the level of diver shouldnt be
    an issue. As for an SMB, that's easy as the octopus extends from the first stage to the side and receiver hangs on, while
    the donor puts up the DSMB solo.

    Octopus/donation drills are rarely practised

    Again that makes the assumption that anybody using a long hose will also practice, funnily enough plenty don't.


    BOTH systems have good and bad points, but instead of working on diver education what we get time and again is
    octopus is bad, long-hose good without recognising that the diver in this story hasnt changed. If he's not using the kit
    right what makes him suddenly become billy-whiz just because one hose is a bit longer?
     
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  8. Tel

    Tel Super Moderator
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    If you are diving with a club that is primarily using an standard octopus using the grab method
    then it's no big deal to carry on as before when using a twinset with just one skill that TBH you should
    have anyway.

    Yellow octopus and hose is fitted to left post and feeds left, black primary on right post feeds right same
    as a standard single rig. If someone grabs occi same response as a single.

    If you have a failure needing a shutdown that means you need the occi for yourself then the important
    bit is to position it in such a way that you can access it and ensure the hose is long enough for you to dip
    your head so it now feeds from the right.

    That's easily done without compromising it's use by the OOG diver, by having it come under the arm and
    position a D-ring on the left shoulder strap which puts the reg pretty close to where a necklaced reg would
    have been anyway.
     
  9. Wibble

    Wibble Fish don't talk
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    Yay, it's Friday...

    So lets group some common issues...

    With the octopus rig, there's a strong onus is on the donating diver to ensure there's some competence to overcome the limitations of the rig.

    The longhose rig doesn't suffer from these limitations as:
    • Both longhose primary and backup are in very controlled locations and cannot fly free
    • Both longhose primary and backup are beside the mouth, thus encourage testing/swapping (it's no effort and doesn't need resetting)
    I'd suggest that a longhose is better when there's an inept diver as the system encourages the donor to practice swapping.

    The octopus rig does the opposite; it doesn't encourage the donor to constantly swap over and check the system. In fact an inept diver will be dragging the octopus in the silt.
     
  10. becky9

    becky9 Diving bore!

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    Btw just to correct a fallacy, the long hose is not intended to put 'distance' between the donating diver and donatee, the only circumstances where this would happen would be through a restriction that the two divers could not pass whilst in touch contact - and even then its a case of hold something especially a zero visability enviroment. In all other circumstances the donating diver, becomes the controlling diver and physically takes hold of the donatee by the arm. The long hose means that this is easier to do, and the donatee can be to the left, the right, in front. It gives a degree of freedom and flexibility not possible with a short octo. Done OOG two ascents from 30m+ for real with a short octo as and its not particially nice (read: fucking horrible). x
     
  11. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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    My octopus is on a necklace under my chin so that`s the same a s a long hose position?
    As above it cannot flt away easy.
    Sorry Wibs but thats just rubbish.
    .
     
  12. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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    Ahh that makes sense to me, I couldn't quite fathom the distance thing it didn't sit right with me.
     
  13. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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  14. Griffalo

    Griffalo Active Member

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    I'm finding this an interesting discussion as I have two teenage sons who completed their OW last year. I've just bought three sets of regulators through the Apeks buy back scheme but without the octo (ran out of money and they weren't in the deal). So I'm interested in a solution that will be common for all three of us as recreational divers. To my mind most of the cons of a short hose mentioned here equally apply to a long hose with the main (only?) benefit of a long hose being the flexibility mentioned by Becky.

    I'm still on the fence, veering to a short hose as that's what everyone else I dive with uses and more importantly that is all my sons have seen.
    However, I have had the occasional instructor/divemaster that uses a long hose and they have clearly stated that during buddy checks along with what would happen if needed.

    I know that with the wing vs jacket argument people say its easier for schools to use jackets rather than wings for various reasons but why wouldn't they use a long hose straight away if it is better?
     
  15. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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    That`s how I see it Griff, as far as I am concerned apart from the Becky flexibility bit all the other faults listed are either bad diver practices or equally apply to a long hose.

    Unless there is anything else I haven't thought off?

    I would suggest initially if you and your sons know are comfortable with and practiced with the octo on a short hose that should be the way to continue.
     
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  16. Doomanic

    Doomanic Dinosaur Wrangler
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    In my opinion, this is a confidence issue. You have a new diver doing OOG training and you want them to primary donate? "Say what, mofo? You want me to take a perfectly good reg out of my mouth because he's out of gas???" It's not going to end well. A new diver doesn't need the task loading that early on, it's something that has to be built up to over time.
    I firmly believe that the long hose, when properly trained and practised, is a superior solution to the short hose but therein lies the rub; many people receive no training in it's use and hardly ever/never practice it.
    I'm getting fussy in my old age and, just as Tel won't dive with me because I've never had any formal rescue training, I have become very picky over who I will dive with and wouldn't dream of doing boat dives or deco dives with a diver who bungies the long hose. I'm very lucky to found a bunch of people with similar mindsets to dive with as it makes diving so much easier.
     
  17. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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    Whys that Doom am curious?
     
  18. Iain Denham

    Iain Denham Active Member

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    If using a long hose should PD then be a standard but not if using a short hose?
     
  19. becky9

    becky9 Diving bore!

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    Because he has no idea if they can deploy it. He also knows that the only real way he can 'stow' it himself whilst practicing is to hog loop. A diver that bungees a long hose will not practice it sufficently as they have no real way of resetting to do it again in the water. With a hog looped long hose it can be repeated numerous times, without issue allowing lots of scope for practice and that its so much harder with a bungeed one x
     
    Iain Denham likes this.
  20. becky9

    becky9 Diving bore!

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    Incidentally, if you have any significant deco obligation at all - using a short hose is batshit crazy. It really doesn't make any kind of sense. If you think it does, you really need to think again. x
     

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